Alright! Well, good morning everybody! Happy mid-July to you. Let ‘s pray. Father we’re grateful for this particular Sunday. Ever since Jesus rose from the dead two thousand years ago, your church has been meeting on the first day of the week to commemorate His bodily resurrection from the dead and that’s a wonderful thing because if He rose, then we will rise and in fact, positionally, we’re risen already. You’ve baptized us into Your death, burial, resurrection and ascension of your Son. Our whole identity now is different. So thank you for the first day of the week, thank you for the resurrection of Jesus. I do pray that You’ll be with us in Sunday school and in the main service that follows as we look into Your word. We do ask for the illuminating ministry of the Holy Spirit and now in preparation to receive from Your word we’re just going to take a few moments of silence to do business with You, not to restore position but fellowship, if needed, so that we can receive spiritual things from You today. We’re grateful, Lord, for the promise of 1st John chapter, 1, verse 9 (1 John 1:9) and we just pray that You will be intimately involved with everything that goes on at Sugar Land Bible Church today, not just in the teaching sessions but with the children’s ministry, youth group, everything that’s happening here. We’ll be careful to give you all the praise and the glory. We lift these things up in Jesus’ name and God’s people said, Amen. 2:09
Alright! Well, if you have your Bibles with you this morning, you can open them up to the book of Ezekiel chapter 38 and we had completed our Middle East Meltdown study that basically ran for six months and then I said, well, go ahead and submit any questions that you have, thinking there would just be a few but apparently this is a subject that’s really of curiosity to people, so the questions just keep rolling in and here are the eight questions we’re going to try to tackle today.
MAIL BAG
The first one relates to resurrection during the millennial kingdom. So the question says: You mentioned that there would be birth and death during the millennium. Then, when will believers who die at that time resurrect? I know there are two resurrections for believers at the rapture and after the tribulation period Does the Bible mention a resurrection of believers who died during the millennial kingdom? That’s a very perceptive question because here is a graph, you can see it.
Hopefully you can see things better now that we’ve sort of upgraded our projectors. Can you guys do a little clearer than normal? Alright, do we get a thumbs up on that? Alright! Praise God. So basically what you’re going to have is two resurrections. There’s a resurrection unto life for the believer and then there’s a resurrection unto damnation for the unbeliever. A resurrection is a reunion between a disembodied soul and when they go back into their resurrected body. So we know from passages like Daniel, 12, verse 2 (Dan 12:2) there’s going to be two of these resurrections at the end and then it just becomes a matter of putting all of the data together in terms of Bible prophecy and the resurrection unto life for the believer, the only thing that’s tricky about it is it has three parts. Christ’s resurrection is part one, which is the first fruits. Just as first fruits guaranteed every other harvest coming in because Jesus rose, everyone else will rise and then there’s coming part two, which is the general harvest, which is the rapture. At the rapture of the church, every church age believer will receive their resurrected body. Those who are deceased and are with Christ in heaven, as we speak, they receive the resurrected bodies first and they begin to descend and we who are alive and remain at the time of the rapture, assuming this happens in our lifetime, which I hope it does, but I can’t guarantee that, we receive our resurrected bodies second and the two groups meet in the sky. So that would be resurrection two and then the third part of the resurrection unto life for the believers is the gleanings where there is a resurrection of Old Testament saints and tribulation martyrs at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. Then a thousand years will pass and you’ll have then, the only thing left on the chart, which is the resurrection of unbelievers of all ages at the end of the millennial kingdom where they’ll be placed in their resurrected bodies and as their names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life, they’re transferred from Hades into the Lake of Fire and you’ll see all of that described in Revelation chapter 20, verses 11 through 15 (Rev 20:11-15). So it’s very interesting that everybody, believer or unbeliever, will resurrect at some point. Some unto life, three phases. Some unto eternal damnation, which takes place at the end of the millennium and we know that that middle resurrection there, the gleanings, Old Testament saints and tribulation martyrs happens after the tribulation period is over but before the millennial kingdom starts and we get that chronology just by looking at Daniel 12:1-2, it says: there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued… So verse 1 is describing the tribulation period A time of unparalleled distress. After that time period is over, then it says: Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life.. So who is that group? That would be the gleanings, Old Testament saints, resurrected at the beginning of the millennial kingdom and accompanying them, there will be the resurrection of people that are martyred in the tribulation period. John in Revelation, 20, verses 4 through 6 (Rev 20:4) adds this detail, he says: Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life… resurrection… and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead… that would be unbelievers of all ages… did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years… So the whole picture, backing up to my chart here, for the resurrection for believers as Christ’s resurrection first, two thousand years ago. Then you have the resurrection of church age saints at the point of the rapture. But what about Old Testament saints and tribulation martyrs? What about people that were believers like Abraham before the church age started and what do you do with believers that get saved in the tribulation period after the church age is over? Well, they’re part of the gleanings and they’re resurrected at the beginning of the millennial kingdom and then a thousand years pass and then you have a terrible resurrection of all unbelievers at the end of the thousand years. 10:10
So one of the things to understand about the rapture, and when I talk about the rapture I’m talking there about the general harvest, when these concepts are explained by Paul in 1st Corinthians, 15, he’s using harvest imagery that the Jewish mind was well familiar with. The Jews in the Bible did not collect their harvest in one fell swoop, there were phases to the harvest. First fruits came in and that was a happy time because if the first fruits come in, that’s pretty much a guarantee that the rest of the harvest will eventually come in. Then comes the general harvest and then God, I believe it’s in Leviticus, 19, verses 9 and 10 (Lev 19:9-10) was very specific, He says, don’t harvest everything, leave some for the poor so they can come and participate in the harvest as well and by the way, the book of Ruth revolves around that third wave there. That’s where Ruth met Boaz at the gleanings. So when we talk about the rapture, our resurrection, we’re talking there about the general harvest and you can see why people look at all this and they just say, well, let’s just use the ram, jam and cram method. Let’s just make one big resurrection at the end and that would simplify things. Well, I agree with you, it would simplify things but that’s not what the Bible says. Some things in the Bible require a little bit more diligent study, you know, to pick up on and just, you know, ramming it all together as one event, as many people do, for the sake of simplicity is not being faithful to the biblical text. So I believe if you want to be faithful to the biblical text, you have to see the resurrection program in this way with all these different phases. So when the general harvest happens, we get a resurrected body. That’s why we should be looking forward to the rapture, Amen? Paul when he describes the general harvest in 1 Corinthians, 15, verses 50 and 51 (1 Cor 15:50-51) says: Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery… Meaning mystery, Paul is disclosing a new truth concerning the church age and its participation in the resurrection program that hasn’t been disclosed thus far… Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed… And he’s speaking there of our resurrected body. He mentions that in the resurrection chapter, 1st Corinthians chapter 15, and he wants us to understand the specific point in time where we as church age believers, members of the body of Christ, will receive our resurrected body. So that becomes a big reason to yearn for the rapture. Unfortunately, the rapture in most people’s minds is, as it’s portrayed in a lot of movies, is just this idea of, you know, all these missing people and, you know, airlines are going to crash because, you know, the pilots could be Christians and, you know, you get into all this sort of sensationalism and you lose sight of why we ought to be looking forward to the rapture. We look forward to the rapture because if it takes place in our lifetime, not only are we snatched off the earth, that’s just half of the program but it’s a point in time where you receive your resurrected body, which you desperately need and I can tell, you guys desperately need it because I can look at you and see it. You guys can look at me and say, you need a resurrected body too. Original sin affected our natural bodies. Our bodies are wearing down because of original sin. It’s what God said in Eden, from dust you are, to dust you shall return. So that’s a big problem that we have and we have a wonderful retirement package here, if I can put it that way, where God promises a resurrected body and you say, well how do I know I’m going to get my resurrected body? Well, Jesus came out of the grave, right? That’s a fact of history. So His resurrection guarantees our resurrection. 15:09
So the question is if that’s the resurrection program, as best I’ve tried to explain it, and if you want to go in and get a greater description of this, go into our Daniel lessons which are accessible on the SLBC website and look at our sermon that we did in Daniel, 12, verse 2. The title of the sermon was “Resurrections and Review” and I just gave you the reader’s digest version, you can get a more in depth treatment of that, should you be interested. So the question is, okay, if all of that is true, then what about people who survive the tribulation, happen to be believers, go into the millennial kingdom in their non resurrected bodies and they happen to die during the millennial kingdom, because we know from Matthew chapter 25, verses 31 through 46 (Matt 25:31-46) that there will be some that survive the tribulation. Some will be goats, unbelievers. They’re cast off the earth into Hades, but some are called sheep and they are believers. They will demonstrate their belief in Yeshua during that time by helping Christ’s brethren (ie, the Jews) during this very dark time of human history where the Jews will be under great persecution and Jesus will look at them and say, okay, you are believers and you survived the tribulation period, enter the kingdom. You see all of this in the sheep and goats judgment Matthew, 25, verse 31 through 46 (Matt 25:31-45), enter the millennial kingdom in non-resurrected mortal bodies. So what an interesting time period the millennial kingdom is going to be. It’s going to be very different than the eternal state.
In the millennium sin will be restrained. It won’t be removed completely, because you will have mortals living in the millennial kingdom, but in the eternal state, the last two chapters of the Bible, sin is totally removed. In the millennium, the curse is restrained, in the eternal state, the curse is removed. The millennium is in Revelation, 20, the eternal state is in Revelation, 21 and 22. The millennium, you’re going to have resurrected and non-resurrected people living on the earth at the same time. You do have a parallel in between the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, Acts chapter 1. There’s a forty day window where Jesus in His resurrected body is interacting with His disciples who are in non-resurrected bodies. They’re actually, Thomas touching His hands and feet, they’re having breakfast together. I mean, that would be kind of interesting. You’re eating breakfast and you’re non resurrected and mortal and you’re eating breakfast with a resurrected person, Jesus Christ. The disciples are asking Jesus questions, a teaching session. So if you can picture that forty day window prior to the ascension of Jesus and you see it described in Acts, 1. That’s the kind of thing that’s going to go on for a thousand years where there clearly are resurrected people in the millennial kingdom, you as a member of the church being one of those people, but you’re interacting with non-resurrected people. In the millennium, mortal destinies are undecided because the children of the mortals who began the millennial kingdom will have to be evangelized, but in the eternal state there’s no need for evangelism, because everybody’s destiny is sealed. The millennium is a renovation. The eternal state is an ex-nihilo new creation; the millennium is temporary; it only lasts a thousand years. The eternal state is eternal, lasts forever, the millennium is transitional. It transitions humanity from the second advent into the eternal state but the eternal state is non transitional. The millennium is a dispensation and one of the ways you can define a dispensation is humanity is given a test. God gives seven tests in the Bible, we call those the dispensations. We’re actually in a test right now in the church age. Are we going to remain loyal to Christ or not? It’s not a test for salvation. Once you’re saved, you’re saved, but as the saved person, I have a choice concerning my loyalty and I define loyalty by orthodoxy, correct belief, and orthopraxy, correct practice and if you maintain your orthodoxy and orthopraxy in the church age, you will be fully rewarded at the Bema Seat judgment of Christ. If you don’t maintain your orthodoxy and orthopraxy during the church age, it’s not like you lose your salvation, but you’ll enter eternity not fully rewarded. So even today we’re being put through a test. There’s a great test that takes place in the millennial kingdom. Can humanity live under the righteous rule of Jesus? But in the eternal state there’s no test. So that’s why the millennium is a dispensation but the eternal state isn’t. Gosh! You thought we’re finished, there’s another chart.
The millennium is timed, it’s a thousand years. The eternal state lasts forever. The millennium has luminaries in it, the sun, moon and stars. In fact, the sun is going to be seven times brighter than what it is right now. I know that’s painful to think about here in Houston, but there are no luminaries, sun, moon and stars in the millennial kingdom. In the millennial kingdom there’s death. You see it described in Isaiah, 65, verse 20 (Isa 65:20) not amongst the resurrected but amongst the mortals. In the eternal state there is no death; the millennium will involve a brick and mortar temple with animal sacrifices in it. Ezekiel, 40 through 48, but there will be no temple like that in the eternal state because Jesus’ presence will illuminate the eternal state. In the millennium there’s going to be satanic activity. Satan is let loose out of solitary confinement at the end of the millennial kingdom to stimulate or reveal a rebellion that’s taking place in the hearts of the mortals, but by the time you get to the eternal state, Satan is done. He’s in the Lake of Fire and Satan will never harass the human race again. In the millennium there’s rebellion at the end but there will be no rebellion in the eternal state. So very, very clearly, there are going to be people that die during the millennial kingdom. The book of Isaiah chapter 65, verse 20 (Isa 65:20) says if you die at the age of one hundred, people are going to kind of sit around and say, what a shame such a young man died and that condition is very different than conditions today, where if you hit age seventy or age eighty, you’re considered fortunate. Psalm, 90 talks about that. So very clearly there’s death during the millennial kingdom and the big question is, okay, you’ve outlined this whole resurrection program but there’s no category here for people who died during the millennial kingdom. When do they get their resurrected bodies? and here’s my answer, after almost a half an hour of explanation. Are you ready for my answer? Here it comes. I don’t know. I really don’t and the reason I don’t know is the Bible doesn’t say. Now, the late Dr. John Walvoord had a view on it and he was very clear when he expressed his view. He says this doesn’t come from the text. This just comes from inference. But he thought the people who died during the millennial kingdom would receive their resurrected body at the point of death and he says, but that’s just an argument from inference, the text specifically doesn’t say it. So if I was going to guess, when do those people that died during the millennium, when do they get their resurrected bodies? I would assume that they get them upon death. Can I prove it? No, I can’t. Would I start a new church over it? No, I wouldn’t. It’s one of those areas that the Bible just hasn’t spoken on and don’t let that bother you, because God in the book of Deuteronomy, specifically tells us that He’s not going to tell us everything. Deuteronomy 29:29 says: The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed… Right here, sixty six books… The things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law… So God right there says, the revelation I’m going to give to the human race is not going to be exhaustive and praise God for that, because do you realize that this book, sixty six books would read like the United States tax code, if God told us every single thing. The Bible admits that it is a finite Revelation. You see examples of that, this is not in my notes or slides, but if you take a quick trip over to the gospel of John for a minute, the very end of the book, chapter 20, verses 30 and 31 (John 20:30-31). John at the end of his gospel, featuring the signs of Jesus Christ says: Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name… Look at John 21:25, very last verse in the gospel of John, it says: There are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written… So there are a lot of other things that Jesus did besides the seven signs in John’s gospel. If everything that Jesus ever did or said was recorded in this book, John says, the world itself wouldn’t be able to hold the books written thereof. So the Bible is telling us it is a finite Revelation. This is frustrating for a lot of people because they want to go to the Bible and they want answers on every single thing and God in His word says, no I didn’t set up My word that way. However, what you have is enough. Did you catch that? However, what you have is sufficient, because when you go back to John, 20, verse 31 (John 20:31), after telling us that not everything Jesus said or did is recorded in John’s gospel, John does say verse 31: but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name… John says, God doesn’t tell us everything but what you have is enough to get saved and that’s a doctrine that we call the sufficiency of the scripture. The scripture is not comprehensive, the scripture is not complete in every historical detail but it is sufficient. You see the apostle Peter making that promise of sufficiency in second Peter chapter 1, verses 3 and 4 (2 Pet 1:3-4), he says: Seeing that His divine power has granted to us… What’s the next word?… everything… not 99% of things… everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises… Where do I find those promises? Right here in this book… so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust… In other words, what Peter is saying is that what is in this book is not only sufficient or enough information to get folks saved. It’s sufficient information to help folks that are saved to reach full stature in terms of their maturity. The sufficiency of the scripture. The same promise is made in second Timothy, 3, verses 16 and 17 (2 Tim 3:16-17), it says: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for… How many good works does it say there?… every good work… See how the scripture is mentioned, verse 16, every good work that it equips us for is mentioned in verse 17. So my goodness! I would love an answer, Lord, concerning when mortals who die during the millennial kingdom receive the resurrected bodies and God comes back at me and says, I didn’t see fit to disclose that to you right now but don’t feel gypped, don’t feel short changed, don’t feel like you don’t have enough because what you have is enough to get you saved and it’s enough to help you to grow and, you know, rather than focusing on the things of the Bible that are not there, at some point we have to start focusing on the things of the Bible that are what? That are there and believe me, there’s plenty there, Amen? And so, after half an hour teaching, my answer to number one is I don’t know and you guys are asking for your money back, I guess. 31:58
MAIL BAG
Alright! Question number two deals with weapons burning during the new Jerusalem. So they say here: Are you adding an additional seven years before the bride can be seen coming down from heaven which is in the new Jerusalem? Your stance sounds correct. But then we head into the millennial kingdom and we know that there is no sun as the son, S-O-N, will walk among us in the city as stunning. It doesn’t sound much like the smell of death knocking down the passer by. So by the way, there’s our picture of the new Jerusalem descending on the new heavens and new earth.
In this case, the new earth and that was so neat, we got to watch that again, don’t we? And it’s going to land right there in the state of Texas and it’s going to be fantastic. You’ll notice that we redrew, our brother, Jim, pastor Jim redrew this globe because the original globe had oceans in it and we noticed in the Bible that in the eternal state there is no more sea. So I asked pastor Jim, could we come up with something with no sea in it and he said sure, we’ll just redraw it and that is what it looks like. So here comes the eternal city down upon the new earth and basically the question is: Well, you’re putting… Oh, and by the way, when that eternal state is ushered in, there’s no more death at all. Revelation, 21, verse 4 (Rev 21:4) of that time period says: He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death… So this can’t be the millennium here, because in the millennium there is death in a limited sense amongst these surviving mortals of the tribulation.. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away… So the eternal state is very interesting by noting what is not there. You can learn a lot about the last two chapters of the Bible by observing what is not present any longer and here are the things that won’t be present any longer:
Eternal State is Future
Satan will not be present. The sea will not be present. Death, crying or pain will not be present. The sun S-U-N will not be present because who is going to illuminate the eternal state? The Son, not S-U-N but S-O-N. Do we understand that God doesn’t need the sun, S-U-N? That’s why the sun, S-U-N, was created on day four in the creation week and light is apparent in Genesis chapter 1, verses 1,2,3,4, God said, let there be light. That’s before the sun, S-U-N came into existence. So God at the very beginning says, do not worship the sun, S-U-N, worship the Son, S-O-N, because the Son, S-O-N doesn’t need the sun, S-U-N. So the Bible sort of ends just like it began. No sun, S-U-N, but with Jesus the Son, S-O-N, illuminating everything. There won’t be a moon. There won’t be a temple, like you have in the millennial kingdom. There won’t be night. There won’t be evil. There won’t be any curse. There won’t be any Democrats, whoops! Sorry, cut out that out of the tape, Freudian slip, sorry! And if I am to criticize the Democrats, I have to criticize the other party. The Green Party won’t be there either and so, it’s really an amazing time that’s going to happen. So you know the big question is, okay, with your view of Ezekiel, 38 and 39, you’ve got at the very end of it: Burial and burning. Burial of bodies. Burning of weapons. As I’ve tried to explain, I think that is something that happens at the end of the tribulation period and so people want to know, well, the way you have it set up is you’ve got burial and burning going into the eternal state, which I don’t. The burial and the burning does not go into the eternal state but it goes into the what? Millennial kingdom, which really isn’t a big problem as far as I can tell, because the millennial kingdom is not a new creation but a renovation. Now, if somebody has an eschatological view of the burial and the burning going on into the eternal state, that would be a problem, because the Bible is very clear that there won’t be any death in the eternal state but it will exist in the millennial kingdom. That, by the way, is why you can have a temple with animal sacrifices functioning in the millennial kingdom but you cannot have a temple functioning with animal sacrifices in the eternal state because that would drag the death of animals into the eternal state. God wants a world, when all is said and done, where there’s no death in it at all. That’s why in early Genesis, before you get to the Noahic Covenant, early man was not carnivorous, he was herbivorous. He did not eat flesh, he did not eat meat, because for him to eat flesh or meat in the garden of Eden would involve the death of animals but God specifically created a world with no death in it. So when everything rolls back to God’s original design and sin finally exits our world and God brings in a new heaven and a new earth, there won’t be animal sacrifices, there won’t be death any longer because death is now a thing of the past. 38:49
So really the bottom line in the whole question is, yes, I do hold to this two phase view of Ezekiel, 38 and 39. I do think that chapter 38 happens concurrently with the second seal judgment in Ezekiel, 38 and I do believe that Ezekiel, 39 flash forwards to the very, very end and there is a description there of birds of prey gorging on the corpses. There is a description there about the burial of the dead for what is it, seven months was it? And there is a description there about weapons burning for seven years during the millennial kingdom and people are very uptight about that because they think I’m dragging problems into the eternal state. I’m dragging no problem into the eternal state. I am dragging issues into the millennial kingdom, which is not problematic because the millennial kingdom is very different than the eternal state. The millennial kingdom involves a renovation of the present earth; the eternal state is an ex nihilo new creation. So I hope that helps some. Most people when they teach this, they’ll just kind of take the eternal state and the millennial kingdom and they use the ram, jam and cram method. Just ram it all into one event. Why? Because it’s easier that way. Well, like I said with the resurrection program, yes it’s easier to allegorize everything to simplify it, but the problem is the Bible is a book of details and the more interested you get in details, the more you start to see that the resurrection program is multifaceted. The more you start to see that the distinction between the millennial kingdom and the eternal state is multifaceted and you reach that conclusion by applying the same literal method of interpretation to prophecy that you would apply anywhere else in God’s word. Most churches are unwilling to do that. Most Christians today by way of denominational affiliation are sitting in churches that will never teach something like this because they bought into this sort of allegorizing, spiritualizing mindset concerning Bible prophecy and they would almost mock or poke fun at people that want to draw these distinctions but Sugar Land Bible church is a dispensational church. We apply the literal, grammatical, historical, contextual, hermeneutic or method of interpretation not just to the gospels and the book of Romans but to the whole Bible and the more you do that, the more you have to do more homework in terms of rightly dividing God’s word. I would much rather not do the homework, I would much rather be intellectually lazy, I would much rather use the ram, jam and cram method and tell people I’m a panmillenialist, that’s all going to pan out at the end and be hopeful because Jesus is coming back soon, praise God, Amen, end of sermon, without any fleshing out of the details. I would much rather do that but I’m more scared of God than I am people. I’m more scared of God holding me accountable as a teacher, which the book of James says He will. James, 3, verse 1 (James 3:1): But few of you presume to be teachers knowing that the teacher will incur the stricter judgment… I’m much more intimidated by that prospect than I am of potentially losing people because they don’t have the intellectual patience to walk through what I’m walking through here. So that’s just a little bit here in our ministry philosophy. 43:05
MAIL BAG
Question number three, and this kind of fits with what we’ve been speaking of. Someone wrote in and they said, I have been watching Middle East Meltdown and a seventh day Adventist friend of mine. There’s the problem there, you’re listening to a seventh day Adventist and if you’re listening to a seventh day Adventist, like Doug Batchelor, you may have seen this guy on TV, he’s very articulate.
He’s really got the gift of gab, I guess we could say. Very intelligent and he has this show that he does. I think it’s called questions and answers, where people send in questions. What’s it called? Amazing facts and he’s got some of his facts wrong. But it’s very interesting watching him, people are sending in these questions and he’s walking out sort of detailed prophetic answers kind of like how we’re doing here and people are wondering, well, how come he’s saying different things than you’re saying Pastor Andy? Well, the answer is he’s a seventh day Adventist. A seventh day Adventist has a different eschatology than does a dispensational, pretribulational, premillennialist. In fact, when you watch Doug Batchelor, it’s not long until he starts attacking the pre-trib rapture and I usually just want to turn him on, I usually look at my watch and say, okay let’s see how long it’s going to take him in this program before he starts bad mouthing the pre-trib rapture and sometimes he does it right out of the gate, sometimes he disappoints me because he waits twenty minutes before he does it, but eventually he starts trying to bad mouth the pre-trib rapture. So the first problem is this person is listening to the wrong people. I wouldn’t really advise you carefully about social media and YouTube. Just cause someone is on social media or television, for that matter, as Doug Batchelor is, or the radio for that matter, doesn’t mean they’re giving you the truth. You have a finite Revelation, sixty six books that God has given you, to screen everything through, including myself. This is the final court of arbitration. Not what somebody with a big following happens to say. But anyway question three is: I’ve been watching your Middle East Meltdown and a seventh day Adventist friend of mine sent me a YouTube message. The title of the messages is: Will Russia play a role in the last days? In the twenty one minute message. Now, why is it twenty one minutes? Cause it’s got to be edited for television. In the twenty one minute message, he stipulates that Gog and Magog in Ezekiel, 38 do not refer to Russia specifically but instead Gog and Magog symbolically, symbolically represent the enemies of Israel. Over the years, I have also heard messages from various pastors that also teach the Gog and Magog symbolically represent the enemies of Israel. I would so appreciate your comments on this commonly held view. So essentially what people do is they come to Ezekiel, 38 and 39 and they say, these are not real nations that are going to do this invasion. These are just symbols, great symbols for the great enemies of God in the last days. As we have tried to explain, Ezekiel, 38 and 39 is not set up that way.
Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah do not refer to just some kind of symbol of evil but refer to the nation of Turkey. Rosh refers to Russia. Magog refers to Central Asia. Persia refers to Iran. Cush refers to the Sudan and Put refers to Libya and we’ve given you this chart here which shows you what all of these different ancient sounding names refer to.
Magog is Central Asia. Rosh is Russia. Meshech is Turkey. Tubal is Turkey. Persia is Iran. Put is Libya. Cush is the Sudan. Gomer is Turkey. Togarmah is Turkey. Sheba and Dedan are Saudi Arabia. Tarshish is Spain. The Merchants of Tarshish are probably the money people in Spain and of course, number 14 is Israel. Now why is it that the seventh day Adventist mindset interprets these symbolically but we are taking such a literal interpretation of these? Well, in the teaching that we’ve done on the Middle East Meltdown we showed you our method. Watch people’s method very, very carefully because method will determine conclusions. The seventh day Adventist that she’s listening to have a completely different method that they’re using. Our method is as follows, when you turn to Genesis, 10, you don’t have to turn there, there’s a table of nations there. It’s where Noah’s descendants settled following the flood and following the tower of Babel event. When you study Genesis, 10, you’re going to find all of these names in Genesis, 10. If you want evidence of this, go back to our sermon series in Genesis, when we tackled Genesis, 10, I think we spent four or five weeks in Genesis, 10 and we try to make that case there. So if you can figure out where those ancient people groups, descendants of Noah, settled and you can identify the modern nations containing those people groups, suddenly you’ll understand who the principal players are in this Ezekiel, 38 and 39 invasion and so we consult scholars like Josephus, who lived a little after the time of Christ, he wrote in his Antiquities all the way back in the first century, maybe a little bit at the beginning of the second century, and he tells you where Noah’s descendants went.
Josephus – Josephus, Antiquities, 1.6.1.
“Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians.”
Herodotus who wrote histories in 450 BC, a little over a century removed from Ezekiel’s time period, does the exact same thing and another scholarly source that we use is BDB, which is a Hebrew lexicon and that Hebrew lexicon will identify where these people groups ultimately settled.
Wilhelm Gesenius – Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon (Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1847; reprint, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), 752.
“pr. n. of a northern nation, mentioned with Tubal and Meshech; undoubtedly the Russians, who are mentioned by the Byzantine writers of the tenth century, under the name the Ros, dwelling to the north of Taurus . . .as dwelling on the river Rha (Wolga).”
So we’re not just looking at this and saying, Hey! This looks like Russia, that would sell some books. Let’s tell people it’s Russia. Hey! This looks like Iran. I watched something on the news about Iran, let’s make Persia Iran, that sounds like fun. That’ll really hook them in and sell some books. No, we’re actually using a scholarly methodology to come to this conclusion. At this point in the study, we’re not looking at current events. We’re looking at exegetical facts. Then once you do your research on it and you figure out where these people groups settled, you look at your modern newspaper and you say, oh my goodness! Ezekiel saw two thousand six hundred years ago what I’m seeing in my newspaper right now, because all of these nations are in their proper orbit with a hostility towards the nation of Israel and these nations are all cooperating with each other and so, it’s staggering what’s happening in our world today, but this is not a newspaper exegesis reading of the Bible. We’re not looking at current events and reading it back into the Bible. You start with the Bible first, figure out what the Bible is saying and once you come to some firm conclusions there, then it’s appropriate to look at the world and see how God is pushing things along to ultimately fulfill the specifics of His word. So in this study, we identified Magog as the Scythians, when I call them the Scythians everybody writes me and says, no, it’s the Scythians and then when I call them the Scythians, everybody writes me and says no, it’s the Scythians. So, pick your poison. Depends which syllable gets the emphasis, Amen? The Scythians you can identify as the people of Central Asia. That group moved from southern Russia to Central Asia around the eighth century and Rosh, Gesenius, a great commentator of the past, a Hebrew scholar, says Rosh is undoubtedly the Russians.
Clyde Billington – Clyde E. Billington Jr., “The Rosh People in History and Prophecy (Part Two)” Michigan Theological Journal 3 (1992): 59, 61.
“Historical, ethnological, and archaeological evidence all favor the conclusion that the Rosh people of Ezekiel 38–39 were the ancestors of the Rus/Ros people of Europe and Asia. . . . Those Rosh people who lived to the north of the Black Sea in ancient and medieval times were called the Rus/Ros/Rox/Aorsi from very early times. . . . The Rosh people of the area north of the Black Sea formed the people known today as the Russians.”
Clyde Billington in the Michigan theological journal looks at a lot of historical evidence concerning how the name Rosh is used in extra biblical writings and his conclusion is that Rosh people of the area of the north of the Black Sea, form the people today known as the Russians.
Is Rosh Russia? – The End, Page 296
“First, linguistically and historically, there is substantial evidence that in Ezekiel’s day there was a group of people known variously as Rash, Reshu, or Ros who lived in what today is southern Russia. Egyptian inscriptions as early as 2600 BC identify a place called Rosh (Rash). A later Egyptian inscription from about 1500 BC refers to a land called Reshu that was located to the north of Egypt. Other ancient documents include a place named Rosh or its equivalent in various languages. The word appears three times in the Septuagint (LXX), ten times in Sargon’s inscriptions, once in Ashurbanipal’s cylinder, once in Sennacherib’s annals, and five times in Ugaritic tablets. While the word has a variety of forms and spellings, it is clear that the same people are in view. Rosh was apparently a well-known place in Ezekiel’s day.”
Mark Hitchcock writes, linguistically, historically there is substantial evidence that an Ezekiel’s day there was a group of people known as Rash, Reshu or Ros who lived in what today is called southern Russia. Mark Hitchcock says: While the word has a variety of forms and spellings, it is clear that the same people are in view. Rosh was apparently a well-known place in Ezekiel’s day… With Rosh, there’s kind of a dispute concerning is Rosh a common name? A proper name? Or a common noun? It gets a little confusing because if you’re reading from the KJV it doesn’t really say Rosh, it says, chief prince. So there’s a lot of people that will say Rosh is just sort of generic, it means chief, head, top, but when you’re reading this in the new American Standard Bible, it doesn’t say chief, head or top it says Rosh, meaning that Rosh is a proper noun. It is a specific name and so you have a decision that you have to make. Is this just sort of a generic description of something? Or is this an actual proper name and a proper noun?
Wilhelm Gesenius – Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon (Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1847; reprint, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), 752.
“pr. n. of a northern nation, mentioned with Tubal and Meshech; undoubtedly the Russians, who are mentioned by the Byzantine writers of the tenth century, under the name the Ros, dwelling to the north of Taurus . . .as dwelling on the river Rha (Wolga).”
You’ll notice that Gesenius, all the way back in 1847, kind of hard to accuse him of newspaper exegesis because this was before Russia becoming a nuclear superpower. This was pre 1917 before the communist revolution in Russia. Gesenius, a very, very well-known scholar, calls Rosh a proper name. Mark Hitchcock in his very wonderful book called “The End” gives five reasons and I won’t reread those to you because we’ve dealt with those earlier in these series. He gives five reasons why Rosh is a proper name and so we believe for those reasons that Rosh equals Russia. 55:47
Josephus – Josephus, Antiquities, 1.6.1.
“..and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch; now they are Cappadocians.”
What about who’s the next one here? Meshech. Josephus tells us that Meshech is the Cappadocians. Where was ancient Cappadocia? Modern day Turkey.
Herodotus, Histories, 3:93-94 (450 B.C.)
“The twelfth, the Bactrians as far as the land of the Aegli; these paid three hundred and sixty. The thirteenth, the Pactyic country and Armenia and the lands adjoining as far as the Euxine sea; these paid four hundred…The Moschi, Tibareni, Macrones, Mossynoeci, and Mares, the nineteenth province, were ordered to pay three hundred. The Indians made up the twentieth province. These are more in number than any nation of which we know, and they paid a greater tribute than any other province, namely three hundred and sixty talents of gold dust.”
Here’s Herodotus writing just a little over a century from the time of Ezekiel, he wrote in 450 BC and he identifies Meshech and Tubal as a group of people living to the… Let’s see here… southeast, I think he said, of the Black Sea. Now when you look at a map, you’ll see that he’s speaking there of modern day Turkey. Persia, who is Persia? We believe that Persia is Iran. Why do we think that? Because Persia has a paper trail. Persia is the empire that replaced the Babylonians in the times of the Gentiles in Daniel chapter 5. You simply keep tracking the name Persia right up to modern day history and in 1935, Persia changed its name from Persia to Iran, 1935; and then 1979 something very significant happened. Iran became Islamicized and it became known as the Islamic Republic of Iran.
There’s a picture here, but you can find this on the internet, it’s a video of what life was like before Islam took over Iran. You can see women wearing dresses, pursuing education, driving in cars. That was under the Shah. When the Shah was toppled and replaced by the Ayatollah in 1979, everything changed. You can see the burkas, you can see the abuse of women, women being denied education, women being denied the right to drive a vehicle, all of that disappeared; and you have to think about that very, very carefully whenever you vote for somebody for office in the United States of America because the truth of the matter, if the Keith Ellisons of the world, and if you don’t know who he is, you’d better Google him and if the so called squad get their way, the exact same thing is going to happen in the United States. Once Islam gets the upper hand, they will put the United states under Sharia Law and every right that you’ve ever known as an American will disappear, just like that and so keep that in mind when you’re voting. There’s a historical precedent for how Islam has destroyed, virtually, every host culture it’s ever gone into. When Muslims are in the minority the big talk is equal rights, equal rights! Don’t be a xenophobe, don’t be an Islamophobe. But once they get the levers of power, that language disappears. You will go under Sharia Law, under the force of government; and so that’s what we see developing in Iran since 1979 and that’s Persia, we believe, right here in the Ezekiel, 38. Put, where are we going to put Put?
Josephus – Josephus, Antiquities, 1.6.1.
“Phut also was the founder of Libya, and called the inhabitants Phutites, from himself: there is also a river in the country of Moors which bears that name; whence it is that we may see the greatest part of the Grecian historiographers mention that river and the adjoining country by the apellation of Phut: but the name it has now has been by change given it from one of the sons of Mesraim, who was called Lybyos.”
Put, Josephus identifies as Libya.
Josephus – Josephus, Antiquities, 1.6.1.
“For of the four sons of Ham, time has not at all hurt the name of Cush; for the Ethiopians, over whom he reigned, are even at this day, both by themselves and by all men in Asia, called Cushites.”
Cush is identified by Josephus as Ethiopia.
Cush = Sudan – Philip C. Johnson, “Cush,” in Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, ed. Howard F. Vos, Charles F. Pfeiffer, John Rea (Chicago: Moody, 1975), p. 1.411.
“The designation, Ethiopia, is misleading for it did not refer to the modern state of Ethiopia. . .Cush. . .bordered Egypt on the South,. . .or modern Sudan.”
Here’s a note from the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, it says: The designation, Ethiopia, is misleading for it did not refer to the modern state of Ethiopia. Cush bordered Egypt on the South or modern Sudan… And time is preventing me from describing the politics of all of these areas of the world, but when you start studying them, you’ll see those are the hot places in terms of worldwide terrorism and Sharia Law.
Josephus – Josephus, Antiquities, 1.6.1.
“For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites.”
Josephus identifies Gomer, not as Gomer Pyle but as the Galatians. We know where southern Galatia is, it’s the modern nation of Turkey.
Josephus – Josephus, Antiquities, 1.6.1.
“…Thrugramma the Thrugrammeans, who, as the Greeks resolved, were named Phrygians.”
Josephus identifies Togarmah as Phrygia and when you study Acts, 16, I think it’s verse 6 (Acts 16:6), it’s a region that the apostle Paul passed through on his second missionary journey and it’s very easy to identify that as modern day Turkey. Tarshish, when you look it up in BDB is modern day Spain.
Tarshish = Spain – Ryrie Study Bible, p. 1,421.
The Ryrie Study Bible indicates that Tarshish “is located in the S of Spain near Gibraltar, 2,500 mi. (4,000 km) W of Palestine [or Israel] and the opposite direction from Nineveh.”
There’s a note there and the Ryrie Study Bible reflecting that and of course, the last nation on the list is Israel. I mean, does Israel mean Israel? Israel’s a literal place, we all know that. So if Israel is an actual literal place on planet earth and the seventh day Adventists are basically telling you, Oh! Everything is just a symbol for evil. Well, Israel’s not a symbol. Israel’s a geographical locale, it’s an actual country. So therefore all the other names mentioned on Ezekiel’s list are actual geographical locales. Now, where it gets tricky is Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9 (Rev 20:7-9). Let me just talk through this and then we’ll stop. This is the end of the millennial kingdom and it says this: When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth… There it is.. Gog and Magog… Oh, no!… to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them… So there’s an uprising, not at the end of the tribulation period, end of the millennium. That uprising is called Gog and Magog. So a lot of people, I think wrongly, take Gog and Magog here in Ezekiel, 38 and 39 and they ship it to the end of the millennium. That’s a big problem because that would have weapons burning and bodies being buried not in the millennium but in the eternal state, which cannot happen. So even though the name Gog and Magog is mentioned at the end of the millennial kingdom, here it is a symbol. It’s not a symbol in Ezekiel, 38 and 39, but it is a symbol for something in Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9 (Rev 20:7-9). 1:03:43
What’s happening in Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9 (Rev 20:7-9) is different than Ezekiel, 38 and 39. Ezekiel, 38 and 39 is a tribulation period series of events before the millennial kingdom starts. What’s happening at the end of the millennial kingdom is something that is completely and totally different. Now, this chart from Dwight Pentecost, I took his information and put it in chart form, will help you see the distinction between Ezekiel, 38 and 39 and what happens at the end of the millennium.
Ezekiel, 38 and 39 is a northern invasion. That’s not what’s going on in Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9, all nations will invade. Ezekiel, 38 and 39 identifies the specific nations involved. Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9 does not. It doesn’t say Gomer, Meshech, Tubal, Togarmah but Ezekiel, 38 and 39 does. Ezekiel, 38 and 39 leads to the millennial kingdom but Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9 leads to the eternal state. Ezekiel, 38 and 39. Yes! It leads to the millennial kingdom, leads into the millennium but the invasion we’re talking about in Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9 occurs at the end of the millennium. Ezekiel, 38 and 39 has seven months necessary to dispose of the dead, that is not mentioned at all in Revelation, 20, verse 9. Ezekiel, 38 and 39, Satan is not bound. But he is bound in Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9, let out of solitary confinement for a season. So what is happening at the end of the millennium is completely and totally different than Ezekiel, 38 and 39, totally different. So with that being said, then why does John when he describes this final rebellion at the end of the millennial kingdom, why does he even use Gog and Magog? It’s the same reason we use the word Waterloo. Have you ever made the statement I met my Waterloo? You’re not saying the battle of Waterloo is being refought. What you’re saying is the battle of Waterloo is so famous that we can use that as sort of a parallel or an analogy to our current struggle. See, at this point Gog and Magog does become symbolic. So I get this from David McLeod and he writes:
David J. MacLeod – David J. MacLeod, “The Fifth ‘Last Thing’: The Release of Satan and Man’s Final Rebellion (Rev. 20: 7–10),” Bibliotheca Sacra 157, no. 626 (April 2000): p. 209.
“How can Gog and Magog refer to a battle in Revelation 19 before the millennium and this battle at the end of the millennium? The most likely explanation is that Antichrist is Gog and will be defeated at the Second Coming. During the millennium his defeat will become a legend among the nations, something like Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo. Then at the end of the millennial kingdom the Gog and Magog ‘legend’ is applied to a new historical situation (20:8), with Satan leading the new ‘Gog and Magog.’ Satan will meet his ‘Waterloo’—his ‘Gog and Magog.’”
So when people say Gog and Magog, that’s just a symbol. They’re wrong if they are saying it’s a symbol in Ezekiel, 38 and 39 it’s not a symbol. Those are real nations. But they’re right if they’re referring to the use of the term or terms at the end of the millennial kingdom in Revelation chapter 20, verses 7 through 9 and what Doug Batchelor will do is he’ll go to that symbolic reference here and say, well, it’s a symbol everywhere. As my professor Dr. Toussaint used to say, that dog won’t hunt. Yes, it is a symbol like the use of the word Waterloo in Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9, but you can’t say it’s a symbol everywhere. So Ezekiel, 38 and 39 is real nations in real time that are forming as we speak and what God is going to do there is going to be so amazing that it’s going to become a legend and it’s going to be sort of used as a yardstick by which to measure all future battles and interventions of God. 1:09:14
MAIL BAG
So my goodness! We got through three questions. Resurrection during the millennium, answer: I don’t know. Weapons burning in the new Jerusalem, no weapons will burn in the new Jerusalem but they will burn in the millennial kingdom. Is Gog and Magog symbolic? Yes, in Revelation, 20, verses 7 through 9, but it’s not symbolic in Ezekiel, 38 and 39. You can’t have something be symbolic the first time it’s used in the Bible. First time it’s used is not a symbol but once the precedent is established for what happened, it then can be used as a symbol in subsequent scripture and so, look at that, we’re out of time and then some. Father, we’re grateful for Your Word, Your truth, grateful for the people that come to Sunday school and actually want to dive into some of the specific intricacies of Your word. Help us to be good stewards of these sections of Your word. We’ll be careful to give you all the praise and the glory. We lift these things up in Jesus’ name and God’s people said, Amen. Happy mini, mini, mini intermission.